Opposite of individuation?

[Rose White]

A big part of my recovery was separating from my abuser. My ego was enmeshed with his. And I had loose or non-existent boundaries between myself and others because I didn’t have a developed sense of self.

In typical child development there is a concept of individuation. I believe Jung popularized it and whether or not Jung’s ideas matter to therapists, they tend to use that idea in one way or another.

So in my recovery I completed the work of growing up, of individuating myself in the world.

I know that a criticism of Western society is hyper-individualism. Put your own oxygen mask on first. Self care. Pull yourself up by the bootstraps. And so on.

Well and good. Well, good enough I suppose. And in order to “succeed” we have to embody those ideals in some way. How many times have you heard, “If I can do it anyone can do it.”

Anyway… I was thinking… about how in Eastern societies there is more of a collective tradition. Don’t stand out. Don’t air your dirty laundry. Tow the party line. And so on.

And I was also thinking about how in reality nobody accomplishes anything on their own. They may take credit on their own, but in reality there is a group of others supporting an individual. Teamwork makes the dream work, etc.

So it makes sense to me that a child would necessarily individuate from their parents in order to develop their sense of self. But I was wondering… is there a developmental stage beyond individuation where a person learns how to be a part of a collective. From an anthropological perspective it would be something like initiation into the adult village life, I think.

I wonder if modern psychology has a term for that, or if it is even relevant today? The idea being that the infant is born and is part of the family, then slowly gains its own subjectivity, then learns how to go back into co-consciousness with other people.

 

[Sideways]

I wonder if modern psychology has a term for that, or if it is even relevant today?

Sort of. Individual vs Collectivist cultures.

Culturally responsible psychology is already driving treatment approaches in some parts, where community identity plays a bigger role than individual identity. It can effect not just the identification of disorders themselves, but also the effectiveness of different treatment approaches.

An example is the use of Narrative Therapy in preference to CBT for Indigenous groups here in Australia.

So, both an actual thing and a relevant thing.

 

[Rose White]

I understand that treatment methods are different for collectivist cultures but I’m wondering if there’s a term like Individuation that describes the process of collectivisation (?) that I suspect is a part of typical human development (but there just hasn’t been as much focus on it in Western Cultures.)

 

[Sideways]

Maybe the orcas have the answer! (Or maybe this is wildly off topic).

In humans, we all have the same brain so far as I know. Humans in western cultures grow up to have an individualistic bent, while other cultures lead to more collectivist approaches (to the way individuals perceive the self and the world around them). But, fundamentally, the same brain, with a lack of anything to suggest one is more or less ‘developed’ than the other.

Contrast this with orcas, whose brains are more complex (and arguably more ‘developed’) than humans, in some really specific ways. And I’m gonna preface this next bit with: I am neither an orca nor brain specialist and very likely have no idea what I’m talking about…

The limbic system in orcas is not just bigger, proportionately, to the limbic system in human brain, its got parts to it that don’t exist in human brains. Which has led some (who may have smoked a few too many, who knows) to opine that orcas don’t just perceive themselves individually and feel their own emotions, they may actually experience ‘self’ as a collective and feel emotions in a collective sense, rather than individually.

And no, I don’t know what the scientific lingo for that is, but it’s very cool, and I would lay money on it that humans are waaaaaay off having a collective sense of ‘self’ anything remotely approaching that!

 

[KayW]

So it makes sense to me that a child would necessarily individuate from their parents in order to develop their sense of self. But I was wondering… is there a developmental stage beyond individuation where a person learns how to be a part of a collective.

In child development, the child moves away from reliance on parents and towards reliance on peers to develop their sense of self. This happens around adolescence and I think is visibly seen in high schools as teenagers moving into distinct social groups.

wonder if modern psychology has a term for that, or if it is even relevant today? The idea being that the infant is born and is part of the family, then slowly gains its own subjectivity, then learns how to go back into co-consciousness with other people.

I think Eric Erikson was a guy that came up with developmental stages of developing sense of self. He's like a crossover between child development and psychology. It's quite an old theory but might be relevant to what you're asking here.